Tuesday, March 04, 2008

View From A Non-Rapist Point Of View

Separately, the 2 following comments from the same man are annoying and typical victim blaming, but together they paint a picture of the commenter and his worldview which are highly informative.

philo has left a new comment on your post "It Isn't Just Victims Of Date Rape Who Cope By Rape Denial":

"What would it mean if society readily admitted that not only do men rape women, but also that men rape women in tragically large numbers?" [from M Andrea's comment on this post.]


It would mean that men who prosecute other men for rape are a bunch of
hypocrites. If I'm labeled a rapist and I submit to that label, then I can
either wallow in self hatred (I wouldn't give society that satisfaction) or I
can begin to empathize with other rapists. The result is that I'll want rape
decriminalized or reduced to a misdemeanor at the least. After all, why should a
select few languish in prison when we're all guilty?

Note that the question did not ask what would happen if society admitted that all men were rapists. Philo is the one who made the jump to all men being as equally guilty of rape as he is and then he's the one who created a pity party for those few rapists -- percentage wise -- who are prosecuted and found guilty.

After raping me, my rapist claimed he didn't do anything all the other guys weren't doing since that gave him a way to minimize his actions and to minimize the harm he did to me.

As for efforts to decriminalize rape, please continue to Philo's 2nd comment.

philo has left a new comment on your post "For Those Who Say Non Stranger Rapists Shouldn't Be Viewed As Dangerous Offenders":

Womyn need to take more responsibility for their actions. Are you all helpless children?

It's amazing how someone who's supposed to be my legal equal can turn on a dime into a helpless damsel.

Lets adjust the lens on this story a little.

Girl goes on mySpace to hookup.
Meets up with some guys who promise a good time.
Gets drunk, fucks around, goes home.
Mom is pissed. Girl employs the rape excuse to beat the rap with mom.

Happens all the time.

It seems womyn want all the rights and none of the responsibilities. Selective equality.

And just to make myself clear I have no empathy for victims. You should all become lesbians. As heterosexuals you are walking time bombs.

From his first comment it was clear he had no empathy for victims except for those hapless rapists who become victims of an unfair society when they don't get away with rape like the majority of rapists do. How unfair!

His lens adjustment conveniently twists reality -- documented in several of the defendant's own words -- to suit his view expressed in the first comment. He has decriminalized this rape by changing the facts of the case.

I see this same effort from many people who claim to be anti-rape (they are against those few rapes that are left after the mandatory lens adjustment) and unfortunately some of these people work in the criminal justice system.

It's also telling that this is followed by "Happens all the time." If girls or women who agree to be alone with him frequently tell their mothers or their friends or the cops that he raped them then all us must know that there is a great female conspiracy to frame him for rape. All you have to do to see this is keep that lens twisted.

In his worldview a woman who is raped is voluntarily surrendering her legal equality. If she then demands justice something is wrong with her.


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posted by Marcella Chester @ 9:27 AM   7 comments links to this post


At March 05, 2008 6:54 PM, Blogger nellta holdings said...

I have some advice for philo:

Become a lesbian.

Then come back next year and tell us how that saved you from sexual crime - because all men are so-o tuned in to identifying and not harassing lesbians.

That actually really gets my goat - the fact that men harass and rape lesbians because either they believe they're het (and therefore 'up for it'), or they just need 'convincing'.
If anything that women could do to prevent rape was likely to work, you'd think living as a lesbian separatist would.
But it doesn't.
See you after your sex change, philo :-) The next year might just do something about that little 'empathy' problem.


At March 10, 2008 11:06 AM, Anonymous m Andrea said...

It seems womyn want all the rights and none of the responsibilities. Selective equality.

I love this one, someday it deserves a post of it's own.

The right to remain unviolated is not a right which needs to be earned.

Think about that a little, and then realize with cold bitter chills that a significant percentage of men really do believe -- after five decades of in-your-face feminism -- that the right to violate a woman is the birthright and prerogative of being a man.

Tell me sexism is not more intractable then racism. Tell me when was the last time you heard someone argue for the right to own slaves.

I'm bookmarking this one as quick and to the point, but it'll get lost in the crowd -- I have so many. :(

Incidently, a man who holds "rape supportive beliefs" possesses the necessary prerequisite for raping someone. It is quite likely that Phil really is a rapist or that he will, if given the opportunity.

At March 14, 2008 11:09 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nice straw man argument. The guy wasn't saying that he invites teens over his place while trolling for girls on myspace, he was using an example that unfortunately is pure speculation on his part with no evidence that the scenario has ever even played out once there-- in other words, his "example" is a fairy tale as far as I am concerned. Even so, I don't think it is fair to twist his words around so that you can pronounce him a rapist and condemn him for that. Your very, very anti-male tone pisses men off, and then some of them, like this guy, end up saying rather vulgar and rude things-- in essence you are unintentionally baiting men into saying stupid, cruel things, so you can then knock them down, and purport that this is how ALL men are. At the least you shouldn't sink down to their level.

Do men harass and rape lesbians? Is this some type of "sport" I haven't heard about? There's only one case that comes to mind-- well two-- one in NYC where a gang of lesbians were harassed by a sidewalk "salesman" who ended up getting stabbed and beat by them after he spit on one, and that famous case of the lesbian in the Mid West that dressed like a male and ended up getting raped and murdered. I don't think it is a commonplace occurrence, but being a lesbian definitely isn't magic armor against rape.

"Think about that a little, and then realize with cold bitter chills that a significant percentage of men really do believe -- after five decades of in-your-face feminism -- that the right to violate a woman is the birthright and prerogative of being a man."

ANOTHER straw man: You don't know that, you are being as bad as that guy by making statements that have nothing backing them up. I don't know any man that thinks it's OK to rape women, and I would have nothing to do with anyone who felt that way-- well at least none ever came right out and said it-- you usually see that attitude in the Middle East, but I bet you aren't in the Middle East.
The problem with "in your face" feminism is that it is very misandronistic ever since the bull dykes usurped feminism and perverted it to their own agenda; this does a great disservice to actual feminism, and tends to create a rift between the genders. That's no way to end the rape crisis-- pissing off the rapists and those that support rape by making them even more hostile to women will just make matters worse.

Oh and any man can end up raping a woman, no matter what belief they purport given the wrong circumstances-- alcohol and/or anger, for example.

At March 14, 2008 2:07 PM, Blogger Marcella Chester said...

Anonymous, your attack of so-called strawman arguments is interesting in contrast to your acceptance of a man using an example that you admit is pure speculation.

Philo's example wasn't a fairy tale. It was a deliberate and at least decades old distortion meant to baselessly attack those who report the serious crime of rape.

Yet it is women's negative reponse to this popular unfounded accusation which is what pisses men off. Go figure.

Speculation such as was done by Philo is meant to have people assume that most reports of rape are nothing more than a fairy tale told by girls and women willing to see boys and men falsely accused of felonies.

That has a distinctively anti-female and pro-rapist tone to it. Yet you dismiss it with the label fairy tale.

In writing his deliberate distortion, Philo didn't let a little thing like evidence get in his way.

If Philo is fine with speculating about girls who report gang rape then he has opened the door to people speculating about him and his motives.

I and those who comment here are not baiting anyone into saying vulgar, rude, stupid and cruel things about us or about those who report rape. That unoriginal crap comes from within that person.

Your assumption that men don't harass and rape lesbians is naive at best. Men who don't care about mutuality aren't going to let their target's sexual orientation stop them.

Soon to be rape victim: I'm a lesbian.

Soon to be rapist (releasing her): Oh, why didn't you say so in the first place?

Also your statement that "any man can end up raping a woman" has a decidedly anti-male tone to it. If I or any woman wrote that it would likely be described as baiting men into making cruel comments.

At March 15, 2008 10:12 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wasn't supporting Philo, he's a schmuck, and I thought that it was implied that by calling his "analogy" a fairy tale that he was being duplicitous, and that I thought that what he said had nothing to do with reality. The point was that he had no evidence that young girls who are duped then raped via myspace have even once made it up; from the many cases I have read about, there was no doubt these under-aged girls were sexually assaulted, and it's disgusting how often this happens. I think the conclusions you have drawn is a fair assessment of his motivations. [I also love the way he calls rape survivors lesbians-- what a piece of human trash he is.]

I may just be naive about lesbian rapes, but I did say that being a lesbian was no protection against rape.

I only mentioned the straw man argument because I don't think you have sink to the level of rape-deniers; it should be easy enough to rebuff them using facts.

In response to your last line: A woman did write something like that-- a feminist, in fact-- and even though it is controversial and misunderstood.She and any other feminist that has been erroneously cited as saying that has been blasted thoroughly time and time again by men, but it is true unfortunately. I wouldn't doubt most men who commit date rape didn't set out planning to rape anyone, and some of them don't even know they did commit rape i.e., "she wanted it," "she didn't really mean no," etc.

Also, you blast people for victim blaming, telling women they should be careful, and most attempts at rape prevention especially if it lays the onus upon women to keep themselves from being violated. I was just wondering what do you think needs to be done to keep women safe as in deterrence, prevention, etc., on the personal and the political levels? I am being sincere, and this is not some attempt to bait you or provoke you in any way.

At March 16, 2008 5:52 PM, Blogger Marcella Chester said...

Anonymous, Philo is more than a schmuck and dismissing him as such is supportive of the dishonest image he was trying to create of a girl who reported rape.

Philo did have facts about evidence available to him but that evidence directly contradicted the twisting of the lens he put forth so he pretended that the evidence didn't exist.

He and others like him are in the "tell a big enough lie often enough and people will believe it" camp. Calling him on that is NOT sinking to his level. He voluntarily put himself in the position of rapist and told me what a rapist would want. Then in another comment he demonstrated that he did in fact want exactly what a rapist would want.

I find that telling, you find it random apparently.

On the all men can rape line, I don't know who your feminist source is and it doesn't sound like you do either since you don't even know the exact quote.

Your quote: "Oh and any man can end up raping a woman, no matter what belief they purport given the wrong circumstances-- alcohol and/or anger, for example." is at best a distortion of what a feminist was trying to communicate.

It isn't circumstances which is the main divide between men who rape and men who don't. It is the belief that under the right circumstance forcing or coercing someone into sex is something they can do and should be able to do without the criminal justice system getting involved.

In the same set of circumstances those with rapist/non-rapist mindsets will will make critically different choices.

Woman yells at boyfriend for something he didn't do. They are alone in her apartment.
Rapist mindset:
She made me mad so I pushed her to the floor and I showed her that I wouldn't passively accept a false accusation.
Healthy non-rapist mindset:
What she said/did triggered my anger so I took a walk until we could have a rational conversation and figure out why she thought I did what she accused me of doing.

Woman flirts with man at a bar.
Rapist mindset:
She made me horny so when she walked out of the bar alone I followed her and showed her that she couldn't do that without curing the condition she created.
Healthy non-rapist mindset:
I got horny while watching her and then I propositioned her as she was getting ready to leave. When she said "no" I shrugged and said, "your loss."

The same contrasts exist in all circumstances where rape has ever occurred.

Rapist mindsets are the source of the danger for rape not dark alleys or whatever circumstance women are told to avoid.

At March 29, 2008 4:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm from the UK, a country where a miraculous 6% of reported rapes lead to conviction and the victims sexual history is brought up in court and not the rapists...hopefully this will change...If you have been in the closet for years and have a close male platonic friend who has seen you drunk on numerous occasions it left me angry the night I got drunk after coming out and I get raped by this close platonic friend...maybe he got off on the idea I was a dyke, he was sober after all, maybe he wanted no strings sex and f*cking a lesbian was clearly the way forward...maybe he'd just felt entitled to me or wanted to prove something...it's almost conforting I will never be able to get into his sick, sad little mind. But I found through talking to professionals in the area that when a perpetrator rapes it is usually nothing to do with the person being raped and has everything to do with the rapist.


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